Curse

JDRyder · Dec 09, 2010, 09:02 PM // 21:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Drunkard

In any decent team setup with UA, non-monks should NEVER bring reses with the advent of scolls unless they want to gimp the party's overall effectiveness.

Or the monk could run a more practical build, meaning not UA or HB and no one dies in the 1st place? Making the teams effectiveness higher due to not getting DPed.

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Because those players wouldn't die in the first place had they been running decent builds. If you have a searing flames team composition, and you haven't been able to spike down a mob, redbar pushing doesn't help the fact that the team cannot spike down a mob. The instant refil on health and energy allows for the team to finish their shitty spike. WoH and HB both push bars up, but if you are having to carefully manage energy, your team composition is garbage.

Better question here, why are you spiking in Pve? And why are you using fire eles in Hard mode?

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DP isn't a problem so long as people aren't dying every group which means one thing: the team isn't killing fast enough

Or the monk is crap. I really don't get this logic, "people are dieing! Its not the monks fault, its the DPSers, they need to kill things faster! Its not the monks fault he cant manage his energy!"

Quote:

The only two healing skills you should ever have on a UA bar are Kiss and seed (with the exception of a party heal in areas of heavy party-wide degen). This allows UA monks to bring a LOT more utility to suit the team's needs (IE edge for spike teams) than WoH monks because the healing %boost from UA allows for monks to drop points from healing prayers.

Wut? UA may have more utility than HB, but saying UA has more utility than a Hybrid WoH is laughable.

Quote:

UA adds utility to the team while punishing bad team compositions.

No UA rewards bad gameplay because its a instant rez on a monk. As I said before, the skills philosophy is flawed because you're playing a class whos job is to keep people from dieing, not letting them die because they're under too much pressure and then rezing them

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It cannot out-last WoH, but if you need WoH to carry you through an area your team is utter garbage.

Wut again? So you're saying WoH is better than UA but if you use a WoH build your team is garbage?

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I do agree with you about the UA+HB team builds and that they are quite inefficient, but since I usually have an E/mo when I monk, I find that UA is much more effective than HB or WoH.

If you like UA run it, but its not more effective than a hybrid monk setup, sorry

maxxfury · Dec 10, 2010, 12:41 AM // 00:41

In the context that you are teamed with an ER infoozer elem, then a woh hybrid is:

a>the wrong backline companion as its skills are uneeded and treads on the ER's toes with smaller shoes..so so speak

b> its slot can be better utilised filling the gaps in the Erinfoozer's skill setup. pressure mop up, party healing, and cleaning. The things the ER cant do well..(Massive spike healing and anti-WTFPWN protection are what the ER CAN do well..) Personally i use an AP based monk for this *Shrugs*for the aegis, seeds, soa's blah blah...not had the gametime to really test Hburst yet but i dont favour Hboon or UA my self on personal 'feel' for the setups...

In general tho JD, i agree that a hybrid is a better bar to run..if no ER is present ^ But these are both different situations (ER or no ER). and you should skill up accordingly :P

Now Healing burst should be added to the OP to be debated too :P

JDRyder · Dec 10, 2010, 01:02 AM // 01:02

I really don't get the ER craze, the times I've had one in my group I didn't find it all that amazing, a good hybrid back line is still better than the UA/ER Imo

maxxfury · Dec 10, 2010, 01:14 AM // 01:14

Id have to say sadly in that case you havent teamed with a player who is any good at running an Er Infoozer.. (not uprising, most pug ones ive encountered were very passive and didnt play anything like aggressively enough and bottomed out their blue and lost bonds, crashed and burned..)

Having infinite blue bar, been able to cap damage at 5% on people, covering everyone with spirit bond makin everyone temporarily a "600" and been able to repeatedly spike a health bar back up on command....

Its like a WOH hybrid but its a quantum leap away from what a monk primary can accomplish due to the blue bar abuse.. when played properly.. Although its a VERY tight bar that and doesnt have the room for the utility afforded a primary monk (namely aegis, smalls prots, party healing, pressure mop up, cleaning ect...)

Even the older PS+sb+infooze+gdw version that was around before the protbond version that is making teh rounds now was still far an away better than a hybrid for the power healing and anti spike..

JDRyder · Dec 10, 2010, 02:46 AM // 02:46

I've actually never played with a PuG ER, but the ERs I've played weren't bad, I've only had to deal with them when doing things with my old alliance.

LifeInfusion · Dec 10, 2010, 03:22 AM // 03:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Drunkard

The only two healing skills you should ever have on a UA bar are Kiss and seed (with the exception of a party heal in areas of heavy party-wide degen). This allows UA monks to bring a LOT more utility to suit the team's needs (IE edge for spike teams) than WoH monks because the healing %boost from UA allows for monks to drop points from healing prayers.

Gift of health is better than D-kiss unless you have ER or something to let enchantments fly around. Gift heals for 105 for 10 healing, which means you need a few enchantments for d-kiss to do better at the same attribute rank.

If you run an ER in the team, then the UA only needs Divine healing/ heaven's delight + seed of life + deny hexes/cure hex, dismiss really since ER lacks party heals and removals. That leaves 2 slots: SoA you don't see that often on ERs, so you could do that and aegis is still useful even if they have it, albeit the energy is horrific on 3 pips. If you choose to go pure heals, then D-kiss is the better option as you can run cure hex instead of deny to get another heal.

Wenspire · Dec 10, 2010, 05:11 AM // 05:11

From what I recall, Gift recharge is pretty bad.

JDRyder · Dec 10, 2010, 05:33 AM // 05:33

Umm 5 secs, not too bad.

BLOODGOAT · Dec 10, 2010, 05:33 AM // 05:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

72% with UA? umm? Have i missed something here?

Anyway what area were you in? I rarely find a place SoA won't stop some pug from dieing due to over agro. That said thats actually one of the few times I'll allow a player to die because they're more of a danger than anything

19 DF = 72% UA

Actually that's with a conset up. Anything I was pugging that didn't use a pug was maxing at 69% unless I was popping Lunars (which I wasn't).

Wenspire · Dec 10, 2010, 06:21 AM // 06:21

I think 5 sec recharge is pretty bad for a single target heal. But that's just my opinion.

IrishX · Dec 10, 2010, 07:23 AM // 07:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wenspire

I think 5 sec recharge is pretty bad for a single target heal. But that's just my opinion.

You get a big heal for 5e at a low spec, allowing you to pump prot to 14. You really should never have to be using Gift on recharge if you prot well. Also, Dismiss is also a pretty big heal.

The Drunkard · Dec 10, 2010, 08:23 AM // 08:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

Better question here, why are you spiking in Pve? And why are you using fire eles in Hard mode?

Try reading my quote...It's why I never pug.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

Or the monk is crap. I really don't get this logic, "people are dieing! Its not the monks fault, its the DPSers, they need to kill things faster! Its not the monks fault he cant manage his energy!"

When it takes more than two min to kill an enemy group and I start running into energy problems as UA, it is the DPS that is the problem.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

Wut? UA may have more utility than HB, but saying UA has more utility than a Hybrid WoH is laughable.

Explain. I'd like to know why so many builds (SCs in particular) use UA instead of WoH.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

No UA rewards bad gameplay because its a instant rez on a monk.

UA offers bar compression so that the rest of the team can run more offensively.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

As I said before, the skills philosophy is flawed because you're playing a class whos job is to keep people from dieing, not letting them die because they're under too much pressure and then rezing them

Why is it flawled? Just because someone else's playstyle is different than yours doesn't mean their wrong. I'd much rather let them die and get a clean start than keep wasting my energy pushing their bars up while they're despretly waiting for energy regen to kick in. You seem to be under the impression that at every mob fight I let teammates die, which is far from reality.

So you understand my point let's compare the two skills directly in a hypothetical situation that favors UA.

You are in frostmaws with a team that is suffering heavy degen and dps from wurm bile with the final boss. Your team is running the risk of dying.

A) You use WoH to save one or two people before three other teammates degen out.
- You are in a potential wiping situation where you have to hope that the people that didn't die can res quickly.
B) You Use Dkiss to save one or two people before three other teammates degen out. You then use UA to res two teammates, giving them the energy needed kill the wurms/heal the rest of the team.
- The two party members have 15% DP, which can easily be erased through pcons, or just continuning through the dungeon.

Call it rewarding bad gameplay if you want, it still doesn't make the skill as shitty as you proclaim it to be.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

If you like UA run it, but its not more effective than a hybrid monk setup, sorry

It is more effective at bar compression, not pure healing. Which is what I said in my original post. Again, UA can be very useful if you are running offensive builds with a coordinated team. It will not carry bad pugs like a WoH will, but I don't pug in the first place so don't assume that.

Monking is completly different in PvE than in PvP; in PvP your job is to keep people alive, in PvE it's to prevent the party from wiping and moving as fast as possible to get your rewards/titles/etc.

Haggis of Doom · Dec 10, 2010, 05:03 PM // 17:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Drunkard

Try reading my quote...It's why I never pug.

You never PuG, hence you know your team composition all the time, and since you run UA, it's obvious prot comes from elsewhere.

If prot comes from elsewhere, you are very biased in your comparison since you needn't worry about prot. A WoH hybrid's strength is NOT party heals, it's its balanced nature. If I don't know what else is on my team, that's my go-to bar. Good prot, good heals.

Ofc with the recent buff to Burst I may run that some more

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Drunkard

When it takes more than two min to kill an enemy group and I start running into energy problems as UA, it is the DPS that is the problem.

Theoretically you are correct.

But there are backlines who do not run into energy problems. An ER, when not rended/shattered constantly, is capable to keep everyone protted indefinitely. A mop-up redbar monk coupled to that will not have energy problems.

Before you say ER is boring and whatnot, if your team is bad, you have to be doubly better to compensate for them. I only run fun builds when I h/h or team up with friends, since I know if I run anything less than the top few optimal options in a PuG we'd fail even more easily.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Drunkard

Explain. I'd like to know why so many builds (SCs in particular) use UA instead of WoH.

1st, SCs are a bad representation of general PvE. Who takes a perma to general PvE?

2nd, SCs are thoroughly designed. If they use an UA monk, it means they have prot coming from elsewhere (SY, ER, Panic etc).

You have to realize that UA is a heal bar and WoH is a hybrid bar. With dedicated and over the top prot elsewhere (read: any time you have a decent ER in your team), it is only the normal that the heal bar is preferred.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Drunkard

UA offers bar compression so that the rest of the team can run more offensively.

No. What bar compression it offers by taking away res skills, it takes it back by needing more prot on its teammates than the WoH hybrid.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Drunkard

I'd much rather let them die and get a clean start than keep wasting my energy pushing their bars up while they're despretly waiting for energy regen to kick in.

"Desperately waiting for energy regen to kick in"...?

Any bar worth 2 cents won't be doing that unless caught unprepared against heavy e-denial. If anything, you letting them die and inta-rezzing them just killed their energy management. ER, WE, Attunements, Critical Eye... Not to mention other long-recharge skills they probably don't want to be messed with, such as Focused Anger, FGJ, Boon of Creation...

And the chaos you'd create if you did that to a MM!

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Drunkard

You are in frostmaws with a team that is suffering heavy degen and dps from wurm bile with the final boss. Your team is running the risk of dying.

A) You use WoH to save one or two people before three other teammates degen out.
- You are in a potential wiping situation where you have to hope that the people that didn't die can res quickly.
B) You Use Dkiss to save one or two people before three other teammates degen out. You then use UA to res two teammates, giving them the energy needed kill the wurms/heal the rest of the team.
- The two party members have 15% DP, which can easily be erased through pcons, or just continuning through the dungeon.

Or

C) Bring mass hex removal since you wiki'ed and knew Wurm Bile would be the biggest killer besides the elemental mobs. One copy of Inspired Hex on any microable (hero or player) character will negate the issue entirely.

The reason to bring UA to Frostmaw's is Frozen Soil, nothing else.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Drunkard

Call it rewarding bad gameplay if you want, it still doesn't make the skill as shitty as you proclaim it to be.

No need to go to the extremes. It has situational use (the kind of situation you seem to be in constantly, it seems), and is a fail-preventing mechanism for bad monks, hence it's not useless.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Drunkard

It is more effective at bar compression, not pure healing. Which is what I said in my original post. Again, UA can be very useful if you are running offensive builds with a coordinated team. It will not carry bad pugs like a WoH will, but I don't pug in the first place so don't assume that.

The point you're making is that it works better for you in your team. While that might very well be true, that only proves that it has a niche: the one of mop-up healing and insta-rezzing in a team who has already more than adequate prot.

Here's a simplified situational analogy: bringing Favorable Winds would be really nice if I always have 6 rangers on my team. Doesn't mean it's better than other skills for other people.

The UA fits well into one sort of team only, the one sort you seem to be running. The WoH hybrid fits into most other sort of teams. So yes, while UA works better in your team, WoH is overall a much better elite.

The Drunkard · Dec 10, 2010, 05:56 PM // 17:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Haggis of Doom

You never PuG, hence you know your team composition all the time, and since you run UA, it's obvious prot comes from elsewhere.

If prot comes from elsewhere, you are very biased in your comparison since you needn't worry about prot. A WoH hybrid's strength is NOT party heals, it's its balanced nature. If I don't know what else is on my team, that's my go-to bar. Good prot, good heals.

For general HM pve I run UA with backup prots and an ER for my backline. Because there is so much prot on my team, I do not need 200+ heal to keep my team up.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Haggis of Doom

1st, SCs are a bad representation of general PvE. Who takes a perma to general PvE?

I like how a skill's effectiveness is determined by how well it can be used by PUGs doing missions and vanqs. You do realize that there is a very large population of guild wars doing speed clears, passing it off as some "exclusive area where only the rich kids go" follows the same logic as calling FAs pve.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Haggis of Doom

No. What bar compression it offers by taking away res skills, it takes it back by needing more prot on its teammates than the WoH hybrid.

You do not need the extra prot from other teammates, as long as you spec your team appropriatly. With ER, Dkiss functions as a WoH on your bar, a good seed will halt party pressure.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Haggis of Doom

"Desperately waiting for energy regen to kick in"...?

Any bar worth 2 cents won't be doing that unless caught unprepared against heavy e-denial. If anything, you letting them die and inta-rezzing them just killed their energy management. ER, WE, Attunements, Critical Eye... Not to mention other long-recharge skills they probably don't want to be messed with, such as Focused Anger, FGJ, Boon of Creation...

Since I don't use any of the build/skills you mentioned as far as team builds (aside from the ER), I can't really comment. As for the ER, I'll let someone else die before the ER because the Er playes a much more vital role on the team.

This is my team composition I use for vanqs, which I optomized around UA.
Players:
UA monk
MoP caller
IMBAsin

Heroes:
MM bomber
ER hero
SoS+splinter support
PI mesmer
Optional, depending on area.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Haggis of Doom

No need to go to the extremes. It has situational use (the kind of situation you seem to be in constantly, it seems), and is a fail-preventing mechanism for bad monks, hence it's not useless.

I am simply defending the skill for what it is, considering all the hate this thread gives it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Haggis of Doom

The point you're making is that it works better for you in your team. While that might very well be true, that only proves that it has a niche: the one of mop-up healing and insta-rezzing in a team who has already more than adequate prot.

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I fail to see all of this prot that I'm lacking that WoH has. Again, if I'm needing to UA, our team is to the point of wiping through spikes. A 200 heal isn't going to help the situation at all when a team is getting spiked for 300+.

Lanier · Dec 10, 2010, 06:15 PM // 18:15

I can't help it any longer... I have to get in on this. UA is just not nearly as good as a WoH, ZB, or now a Healing burst hybrid.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Drunkard

For general HM pve I run UA with backup prots and an ER for my backline. Because there is so much prot on my team, I do not need 200+ heal to keep my team up.

Just because it works doesn't make it the ideal build to run.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Drunkard

I like how a skill's effectiveness is determined by how well it can be used by PUGs doing missions and vanqs. You do realize that there is a very large population of guild wars doing speed clears, passing it off as some "exclusive area where only the rich kids go" follows the same logic as calling FAs pve.

I dont believe anyone said that SCs were an exclusive area... but its definitely not what most PvEers do either. Just because a skill is meta in SCs doesn't mean its the ideal elite to be used there, and even if it were, general PvE is where a skill's effectiveness is defined. General PvE is not balling up enemies with a perma and spiking with HB + MoP + Splinter.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Drunkard

This is my team composition I use for vanqs, which I optomized around UA.
Players:
UA monk
MoP caller
IMBAsin

Heroes:
MM bomber
ER hero
SoS+splinter support
PI mesmer
Optional, depending on area.

I am simply defending the skill for what it is, considering all the hate this thread gives it.

In that situation, with a hero ERing rather than a human, I would far rather run a hybrid with the prots and heals than a UA. ERs cant work with protective bond, so the insane party protection isn't really a factor. While they are pretty efficient with spirit bond and infuse, I have found many experiences where having that prot spirit and SoA on my bar saved team mates lives, in addition to my own energy. Having multiple copies of Aegis is always nice too.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Drunkard

Again, if I'm needing to UA, our team is to the point of wiping through spikes. A 200 heal isn't going to help the situation at all when a team is getting spiked for 300+.

If you're needing to UA, or if your team is getting spiked for 300+, then you need to use your prots more efficiently. Hybrids (at least mine) typically include prot spirit, SoA, and Aegis. These three prots, along with seed of life, will be excellent for keeping your party alive, so that you dont even need to UA them and so that they dont get DP. Anyway, on the off chance that someone does die (which they shouldnt if you are monking well), its not the monk's job to rez. Monks shouldn't even waste valueable bar space (or elite skills) with ressurection skills... that should be left to the midliners.

JDRyder · Dec 10, 2010, 07:02 PM // 19:02

Meh everyone else pretty much summed it up, which is good because I don't feel like repeating the same arguments that people have made over the years.

Here read this thread and pay attention to Ensign, they're a much better player than anyone here atm

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/m...t10457923.html

Wenspire · Dec 10, 2010, 08:48 PM // 20:48

I've said this before, and I will say it again... having an MM in your party is a terrible way to test the effectiveness of a monk/healers build. You can pretty much succeed with any type of bar (good or bad), since minions generate so much damage mitigation. You don't have to worry much about enemies targetting party members.

Spazzer · Dec 31, 2010, 03:45 PM // 15:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by LifeInfusion

When I PUG it seems whenever a monk plays UA someone has to die, without fail.

And they can, because UA allows you to essentially heal them to full health and energy instantly, making it not as big of a deal for someone to die in your team as it would be if that same monk was running WoH.

reaper with no name · Jan 01, 2011, 04:14 AM // 04:14

UA inhibits your energy regen, which thereby inhibits your ability to prot.

Also, rezzing someone with UA still leaves them with death penalty. Therefore, it is better that they not die in the first place.

Spazzer · Jan 01, 2011, 02:13 PM // 14:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

UA inhibits your energy regen, which thereby inhibits your ability to prot.

You should have at a minimum 72 energy in your max swap. If you can burn through more than 72 energy while maintaining UA in order to keep prots up, bravo.